Greetings to all horse owners,
This is a special forum for you to share your experiences with each other and to let me and others know how you're doing with feeding forage free-choice. It is a place for support, congratulations, and to share ideas.
The goal and purpose is to promote discussions among yourselves. Your experiences are important and others will benefit from them. I will interject an idea here and there, but questions posed directly to me are best done by emailing me at gettyequinenutrition@gmail.com (please be patient for my response).
Whether you're taking the first step, been feeding this way for a long time, or are simply considering a better way for your horses, I congratulate you.
Thank you and bless you for all you are doing for horses,
Juliet M. Getty
My name is Melissa Auman, I am the manufacturer and inventor of the Freedom Feeder Slow Feed "Pasture in a Net". www.Freedomfeeder.com. In 2008 I pioneered the slow feed hay net movement and have helped 1000s of horses get back to grazing naturally through Freedom Feeder. I will be on here regularly to help answer questions and share experiences. I look forward to helping you.
ReplyDeleteThanks for doing this, Melissa! I know your input will be a tangible help to all of us!
DeleteKaren Locklair
Thank you Karen. Just in case you missed my website address its: www.FreedomFeeder.com
DeleteFolks, If you were having trouble posting because it doesn't appear that any of the accounts apply to you, you can now choose Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteGreat! Thank you!
DeleteKaren Locklair
This blog is really timely, thanks Dr. Getty!
ReplyDeleteThank you! I welcome you to share your experiences.
DeleteCOMPLETELY AGREE! I am so excited to have this new sounding board and resource! Just found this tonight, and it has MADE my month, maybe my year!
DeleteDr. Getty made the diagnosis of my new horse having heaves seem like a manageable issue, and not the horrid thing people told me. I have voraciously read her books, articles, and followed her advice for equine nutrition with both of my horses. My new girl is now considered a blessing; she has taught me how to take the very best care of both of my horses nutritionally in SOOOO many ways! I recommend her to anyone at my barn who shows interest, and hope to get my new barn owner on board with her own horses nutrition. She'll be getting How to Feed Your Horse Like a Horse for Christmas this year (loan not possible, I take my copy EVERYWHERE)! I also live in the town of Dr. Getty's alma mater (UF), so a mere mention of this, perks ears up, and has hooked quite a few horse friends to reading an article or two, and buying books and teleseminars!
DeleteI agree about the book - mine never leaves my possession! It is my single most important and most-used resource! I recommend it to everyone.
DeleteKaren Locklair
I have found a LOT of resistance to this idea of free foraging. I truly believe my mustang is happier and healthier because I allow him to free forage like he learned to do as a foal. I also support Dr. Getty because she has provided me with advice that served me and my horse well. I truly believe because I allow him to free forage he is calmer and less prone to spooking. I do not understand the mentality that MAN has to control the horses food when in captivity. not normal, not natural and detrimental to the animal. I love my horse and will do everything I can to ensure his safety, happiness and health. And thank you Dr. Getty for your good advice. Heather Harvel
ReplyDeleteI'm with you, Heather! Well said!
DeleteKaren Locklair
..with you both as well....
DeleteHeather, You are to be commended! It is truly amazing to see how a horse changes, both physically and mentally, when they are allowed to be horses. Thank you!
DeleteHeather, I share the same experience. So many people are resistant to the idea of free feeding. When someone comments on my TB and how well he looks, acts etc.. The one thing I mention first is how I feed him. I allow him to be a horse, and enjoy being a horse. 1 out of 5 people I speak with seem to understand the natural way of owning and feeding horses. I will continue to educate people I come into contact with in hopes that I can help one horse at a time. I can honestly say, finding Dr. Getty and learning from her, has inspired me, and has changed my horses life for the best. I look forward to the knowledge she continues to share, and her upcoming books.
DeleteThank you.
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ReplyDeleteDr. Getty, you are our angel. We have been struggling alone for so long - I just cannot thank you enough for what you do!
ReplyDeleteMy name is Renee Andrako and I live in a little town called Emmett in Idaho. I moved to Idaho because land was affordable, but having lived here for 13 years, I would choose another place to live if given another chance - Idaho is NOT an animal friendly place.
I have seven horses - three full sized horse and four mini horses/mules. All of my animals are rescues and all have significant medical/health issues resulting from their abuse and neglect. Local veterinary services have not been able to resolve these issues for us so, as a student of human homeopathy and nutritional healing, I began to look into their diets as a source of the problems. I have SO MANY topics I want to discuss, but as this blog deals with free feeding, I'd like to share my limited experience.
I immediately began free feeding upon receiving Dr. Getty's e-mail explaining how horses produce stomach acid. I never knew, or even guessed, that horses produce stomach acid continually. I feel really guilty for restricting their food in the past. But that is behind us as I am now making sure that my horses have something to eat 24/7. What I would like to share with everyone is that it does work! I am making adjustments to deal with certain complications. For instance, my mustang mare, Taima, still feels the need to eat to excess even after three weeks of free feeding. But Taima's main issue is long term starvation. When I first saw her, she was in a 10 x 10 pipe corral with another full sized horse. Neither horse could move unless the other horse moved. The other horse was older and nice and fat. Taima was emaciated and covered with injuries. She had lived in that situation for 2 1/2 years. When I first brought her home my vet gave her a body score of "2" and estimated that she had less than 4% body fat. I immediately began throwing her excessive amounts of a very good quality alfalfa hay (at the recommendation of my vet) and she foundered. But at that time, her ration was NOT balanced. The vet then told me to switch to grass hay and restrict her diet. That's when Taima's attitude became toxic. She went from a sweet, friendly mare to a mean, suspicious creature that didn't want contact with anyone. She would pin her ears and switch her tail every time I came near her, but when I got close, she would shove her head into my chest and I honestly felt like she was sobbing in my arms. Because of that experience and Dr. Getty's information, I am committed to make free-feeding work. So today, when Taima has finished the ration portion of her feed and runs out of chaff, I give her access to the pasture AND give her more chaff (so she has a choice) and remove her access to the other horses' and their food (the other horses are reacting exactly as Dr. Getty described that they would after they realized they would have food and would not have that pain in their belly). I guess my point is that everyone needs to evaluate their own situation, make sure their rations are balanced, and find a way to make free feeding work because it IS the way nature intended horses to eat.
Oh my goodness, what a story! Bless your heart. I have been self-taught regarding the use of homeopathy with my animals...SO much to learn. I am all alone in this, I have yet to discover anyone who is interesting in hearing this way of managing illness or injury. The only vet in my area (Buffalo, NY) is renowned for her ability to prescribe remedies for acute situations - I am outside of her range of care (even had my own homeopath who takes all her animals to this vet ask on my behalf). So - yeah - all alone.
DeleteBUT, I am NOT ALONE in the area of equine nutrition! Dr. Getty has been my sole source (for the most part) of nutritional information...and I believe my horses are the better for it. I trust her and have come to think of her as a friend.
It still amazes me the amount of information horse owners and vets still do not have regarding even the basics of horse care.
Renee, you have hit the nail on the head! The horse's digestive tract is so different than ours and the poor horse suffers terribly because we are not in tune with the fact that acid is constantly flowing -- all day and all night, every second. Why is that? Because horses are supposed to be able to graze whenever they want, not whenever we want.
DeleteBless you for helping this poor animal and making her whole again.
I'm reposting this from Dr. Getty's original blog -
ReplyDeleteI feel free choice will work for healthy horses who aren't bored and have lots of opportunity for activity. I don't believe anyone who tries to match calories (DE) to requirements advocates having a horse go without forage - we know it can contribute to a host of ills. But to advocate free feeding for all is, IMO, irresponsible. The laminitic horse who can not yet move out comfortably, the horse stall-bound because of injury. Free choice? I don't think so. Slow feeding so the horse doesn't go without forage for long stretches? Definitely yes.
But continuous availability of forage is NOT the same as free choice feeding. And for the thousands of horses which spend their lives in stalls - free choice could be a disaster. Until their owners/trainers realize these horses need to live differently, not only will these horses remain neurotic, they will become obese neurotics if given free choice forage - what else do they have to do?
Beware of unintended consequences.
The biggest key for all horses is forage that is low enough in NSC (sugars and carbs) and exercise. Feeding free choice of high calorie feed is irresponsible and ignorant. The easier the keeper, the lower the quality of hay they require to maintain their optimal weight. Mustangs live on weeds, use old hay, not moldy but old so the nutrition has pretty much gone out of it. Same with easy keepers. Many stalled horses can and do live very happily, much more happily I might say, with continuous LOW CALORIE, HIGH FIBER forage.
DeleteIt is not necessarily a matter of boredom although that does come into play. No matter how a horse is kept its digestive system has not been changed and will continue to have digestive acids pouring into an empty stomach.
People who board their horses need to realize that the horses must get out and exercised. They aren't motorcycles that you just turn off the key and let sit in the garage until you're ready to go play. They are athletes, living, caring, emotional beings that need interaction, movement and forage available at all times to stay healthy.
Please explain the difference between continuous availability of forage and free choice feeding.
Free choice feeding: putting forage out in front of them and letting them eat as much as they want
DeleteContinuous availability of forage: using slow feeders to ensure the horse has some forage available and in his gut most of the time.
I have always, and still do, advocate providing the best quality hay you can afford for your horses. This does not equate to high DE or high protein hay, unless this is what your horse requires. Good quality "horse appropriate" hay suits your horse's requirements for DE, protein and major minerals.
"Easy keepers" require HIGH QUALITY NUTRITIOUS hay - but that hay should also be of appropriate DE and protein. "Nutrition" is much, much more than simply calories.
Hi Patti!
DeleteI understand how you feel because I have been where you are when my horses foundered. I learned that restricting their diet didn't help, but I was afraid to try free choice. The difference came when I balanced their ration - not just for DE, protein, and mcal, but for minerals as well. I have come to the conclusion that my horses were overeating to balance their mineral needs and that idea was validated when I got my forage report back and found that my pasture and hay was VERY low in phosphorus, zinc, and copper - that it was very high in selenium, calcium, and iron. Once I got that balanced, their behavior changed. When they were bored, they played with each other, scratched each others' backs, and wanted to be around me! It was a beautiful and amazing transformation. In addition, the chronic laminitis and founder disappeared, my shoer said their hooves no longer showed stretched lamina, and the last blood test they had done showed normal thyroid (two of my mares were hypothyroid prior to balancing their ration). But that never would have happened had I not balanced their ration. Another important aspect of free-feeding is the type of free feed provided. I purchased some very low NSC grass hay grown in another part of the valley and I am finding my horses just pick at it throughout the day as they choose. What is really cool is that when I feed them their regular ration of hay at night, they no longer stampede in as if they haven't eaten for a week. The only problem I'm having with free feeding at this point is that they occasionally use their left-overs as a toilet. But that is easily remedied with deeper troughs. I hope you'll give free feeding another look.
Best of luck to you!
Here's a curve ball: how do I free feed forage to my 26 year old who cannot chew hay?
ReplyDeleteKrista - I balance diets for several senior horses thriving on strictly Timothy or Timothy/alfalfa pellets. The pellets, with or without some beet pulp, and a quality mineral supplement is all they have needed.
DeleteHay pellets and hay cubes are "forage". Some "toothless" horses can still enjoy gumming longer stem hay for entertainment.
Using a "Nose-it" filled with pellets or cubes (just make sure they're soft enough to be gummed, like the Mountain Sunrise Timothy pellets) can help keep more "forage" available for him. Here's the link to Nose-it http://nose-it.com
Many people purchase leaf shredders to chop the hay they feed their other horses, putting it through once or twice depending on how well the horse handles it. Wetting the chopped hay helps make up for the lower amount of saliva produced by older horses.
If you use a track, you can put small pans or buckets of pellets or chopped hay along the way so your horse has to move to find it and not eat it all at once.
Lots of ways to do this once you start brainstorming - and I'll bet lots of others have more ideas.
We are about to move to 10 acres and are considering getting her a little mini friend and moving her home where we can do exactly the track idea you mentioned. The problem has always been that if we tried to feed her something as exciting as hay pellets or soaked, chopped hay while out with our 7 year-old, it would be gobbled up immediately!
DeleteShe actually gets very angsty with hay and sulks because she knows she can't eat it. She will toss it around with her nose whether in a net or flakes like "Get this crap out of here!" But we have successfully given her a soaked chopped hay. (The amount of calcium in alfalfa cubes makes me nervous for her old kidneys.)
My plan thus far is to set up a small track (until we can clear some more land) and set up feeding stations in such a way that the mini cannot reach them. Then, provide small amounts of hay at each station on the ground. The problem with this is that I would obviously be feeding her much higher than the ideal feeding position. My question is, what is worse: turning your mare out alone so that she may eat in the correct position, or feed her in an unnatural position but allow her a "herd?"
Hi Krista, Patti offered some excellent innovative ideas. You may need to put the two horses outside together on either side of a fence, or as you described, so your old horse can eat without competition.
DeleteAnd since the soaked chopped hay has worked, continue with that. Have you heard of Triple Crown's Safe Starch? It is an excellent way to feed and is low in NSC, has no molasses, and added vitamins and minerals.
As far as an unnatural position goes, most horses will pull out what they want and drop it to the ground anyway, and eat the rest of it at ground level. So, it won't be like you are forcing her to eat with her head elevated.
I hope this is helpful. Oh -- and one more thing. Have her kidney function tested with a simply blood test. You may find that her kidneys are fine and she can handle the protein of alfalfa. I like feeding some alfalfa, even to older horses because it boosts overall protein quality. A low quality protein (from one type of grass hay) prevents her from repairing tissue, and it can also raise insulin levels.
Hi Krista!
DeleteI have a miniature mule, Maggie-Jo Sugarbear, who is older (actually, she's another rescue and we're not sure how old she is), but that's not really her problem with eating. She was a victim of neglect and among the many other of her needs that were withheld, no one ever had her teeth floated. So her back teeth grew to the point that they shoved her lower jaw forward radically, creating a huge under-bite. I have been floating her teeth twice a year for the 8 years she's been with me and we've corrected the tooth overgrowth, but her lower jaw remains extended and her teeth don't match up. The vet told me that the only option would be to do corrective surgery and horses/mules do very poorly with this kind of treatment - many don't even survive the surgery.. So, that was not an option, but I was still faced with the challenge of getting nutrition into her because when she closes her mouth to chew, none of her teeth match up so she is unable to masticate her food. So I had my father "modify" a wood chipper by sharpening the blades to the degree that they act like a mulching mower. I put the hay in the top and when it comes out of the chipper, its just barely larger than a powder and I catch it in a burlap bag. I can weigh this out and feed it to her as is or moisten it and mix it with the other part of her ration (which is soaked timothy and alfalfa pellets along with her individualized supplement components). It's working fantastically!
I'm also posting from Dr Getty's original blog:
ReplyDeleteBravo Dr Getty- you wrote with such passion and conviction! I have been slowfeeding with bale nets for 2 + years and there is currently 7 horses on my property and they are on a small track system with multiple feeding stations. There have been challenges along the way, for sure! But I cannot emphasize enough the change in my horses' affects and attitudes- it has been well worth it. My biggest challenge is my 13.2 hand welsh cobb mare that is such an easy keeper. The biggest challenge is that she is limited in her exercise. We live on the side of a mountain in snow country Canada and she has a neck injury that prevents her from much exercise other than on the flat! I have no flat! My other horses are all doing awesome and I will never go back.... I think it is cruel to have horses on anything but free choice and/or slowfeeding!
Thanks to your suggestions: testing my hay and adding magnesium- hopefully this will help my mare. ~Leah
And I am now adding an addendum:
In the last two years on my journey with slowfeeding I have realized a few things:
1) there are those who want this to fail because they are so engrained in old patterns and unfortunately in the vet world asking your vet's support when they aren't in FULL support and FULLY educated can be a huge barrier to success
2) some horses transition beautifully while other need alot of support and problem solving as people like Melissa Aumen (above), Dr Getty (and many others) can offer or a blog like this...
3) transitioning to slowfeeding/free choice does put the onus on the owner to ensure adequate movement and exercise (which is again a strategy for optimal health of the horse) and often this commitment is not well understood.
4) Many underestimate the value which hay to use and hay testing- putting rich, high sugar or high concentration alfalfa hay into a net can be a huge mistake
Again thank you to Dr Getty for giving us this forum of support- hopefully with positive, helpful and encouraging knowledgeable support will assist in better successes.
Hi Leah, Thank you for your kind words! You are doing a great job and it is a job -- it is a challenge -- but so well worth it (as you mentioned!).
DeleteIt's unfortunate that there are old ingrained points of view on this. It really makes so much sense -- insulin resistance happens when WE make the horse insulin resistant by forcing their instincts to take hold when forage is restricted.
OR, insulin resistance happens when WE feed the wrong type of feed to them -- feed that is too high in sugar and starch and calories. Or, feed hay that is low in protein quality. Most people do not realize that feeding a poor quality protein source actually causes amino acids to be destroyed in the liver, which leads to an increase in glucose production. And when glucose goes up, so does insulin! So feeding one type of grass hay, even if it is low in sugar/starch, can make the horse fat.
I am here to support those who need answers to questions. It can get complex and add to that, the complexity of every individual horse's situation as well as their owner's and, well, we've got work to do!
Thank you again, Leah, for your dedication and encouragement.
Reposting comments, and clarifying because this is so important. Sorry, Juliet, you're just way off base on recommending that ALL horses have free access to forage. In an ideal world, yes. Anyone with knowledge of horse nutrition would support free forage wherever it might work. My clients and I have tried this with great commitment to it and I have now a database on this of about 30 horses of varying breeds. I’ve seen Arabs, thoroughbreds, mustangs, and some quarter horses do just fine; there are probably other breeds that might do just fine as well.
ReplyDeleteAny IR-prone breeds, though, will likely eat themselves into obesity, become IR, and some will develop laminitis. This has been clearly, absolutely demonstrated, even after giving some of them (my own) a year to adjust and self-regulate. In fact, one of those horses (also my own) ultimately died. Obesity and becoming IR, which he wasn't before free-feeding, were factors in his death. You have many great recommendations on many topics but I'm afraid you're dangerously naive on this one.
I should add that all of the IR-prone horses were on slow feeders and all 30 of these horses were on balanced diets with a base of Bermuda or brome hay, both of which have a low sugar/starch profile. They were not fed grains or brans, which would have exacerbated the problem.
Horses of this ilk who are stalled 24/7 or turned out on dry lots as they are here in Arizona have an especially hard time self-regulating. My own horses -- Paso Finos, a Rocky Mountain Saddle Horse, and also our minis -- were eating at least twice an appropriate amount. We tried almost every type of slow feeder on the market, including the slowest of slow feeders. And this continued for nearly a year – plenty of time to adapt and way past when I should have discontinued the experiment. I so wanted to believe in their ability to adapt, and I felt it important to give this a long try since my clients often ask about free forage.
It took another 8-12 months after stopping for them to get back to a decent weight. (And I don’t keep my horses thin.) Fortunately, we stopped this sooner with my clients’ horses for whom this wasn’t working. All the problematic horses are now fed three times a day with slow feeders. Yes, more often would be better but real life and livelihoods get in the way.
You published a very public, widely distributed article promoting free forage for ALL horses. I have seen it work beautifully for SOME horses, and for those types of horses, it’s advice I heartily support. Instead of suggesting a private paid consultation regarding my and/or my clients’ horses, I think it more appropriate for you to tell us all, widely and publicly, what experience you’ve had with these types of horses and how you would make this work in these cases. In my experience, the cruelty was in allowing free forage for so long, not in preventing them from having it.
Hi Jane, First I'd like to give my condolences for your losses.
DeleteI have a couple of questions.
1. How much exercise did the horses get?
2. Were the slow feeders ever allowed to go empty even for 10 minutes?
3. Was the hay you fed actually tested or was it an assumption that those were low profile hays?
1. My horses are worked 3-5 times a week in light to moderate work. Some clients do less than this, some quite a lot more. A few client horses were/are on 24/7 turnout (dry lots here) but are not in work.
Delete2. Cardinal rule: never empty. Of course, I couldn't babysit my clients to see that this was always true but they were committed strongly to the practice.
3. I test all hays and balance exactly to the hays. All clients are on supplements customized to their exact hays, feeds, circumstances and supplements are adjusted as any of these factors changes.
I hope you have a great idea about this because free feeding is still a first choice -- when it works!
I strongly concur with Jane Rhodes' experience with tested low sugar/low starch hays.
DeleteAn IR horse is also leptin resistant and does not have an "off" switch. Many of these horses will never self-regulate.
In an ideal world, all horses would be able to get ten to twenty miles in a day, have a huge variety of forage of all types to choose from, and never need to be available to work or play with their owners.
The "instincts" that Dr. Getty refers to can't simply be restored by "free feeding". It's an entire lifestyle - one that not every horse owner can accomplish, or that every horse can adjust to even if given the opportunity.
I am very sorry for your loss Ms. Rhodes - that had to be excruciatingly painful. But I had the exact opposite experience as balancing my horses' rations and moving to free feeding has saved my horses. Even the horses that have had chronic laminitis in the past are now sound and healthy. I attribute my success, and the success of free feeding, to the balancing of my horses' rations. I follow the NRC recommendations to the letter and I buy the individual mineral components and dose my horses exactly to the differences between forage analysis and the NRC recommendations. Further, I adhere to all of the NRC recommendations. For instance, I have a neighbor that follows NRC requirements for the major mineral components, but doesn't feel she needs to balance lesser known minerals like manganese. However, manganese is needed for sugar metabolism and I believe deficiency may be responsible for IR horses. Also, manganese reduces the absorption of iron which combats the notoriously high iron content of forage. I feel this is critical because many studies are now indicating the "iron-overload" may play a much greater role than originally believed in laminitis and IR. But you raised a VERY important point. I agree with you that each individual must assess the needs of their own horses, but those assessments must include a truly balanced ration including balanced mineral levels.
DeleteThank you ! Juliet Getty for all that you do for our equine world - as many are learning the benefits with free feeding or slow feeding.
ReplyDeleteI am Mandy Blais and the owner and developer of the N.A.G Bag - Natural Alternative Grazers - I developed our slow feeders as an alternative for feeding, as I am involved in the horse show world, and breeding industry, and that is where this is so needed as the horses are usually living a very unhealthily, stressful lifestyle, but we are changing that and seeing many top show stables, trainers and veterinarians coming on board with the enormous benefits for digestion & mentally for these horses - I will continue my passion in helping them and showing my horses 100% naturally.
For horses to live more naturally in a very unnatural world. I do foresee all horses will be fed this way in the years to follow
I will also be available to help with slow feeding systems and questions www.slowfeeder.com
I just ordered one of your bags. I am hoping it solves my problem (see earlier post). Thanks.
DeleteYou are right, Mandy -- this approach is catching on. It is especially helpful when the horse cannot graze on pasture or when pasture is not available. My goal, of course, is to allow horses to return to pasture grazing, but that is not feasible for many cases. And what better way to simulate grazing than to create a system, such as yours, that allows horses to eat slowly, a little at a time, stimulate saliva production, and ease the pain of an empty stomach. Thank you!
DeleteI'm a fan of slow feeders and having 24/7 forage available. I do this with my horses and it's interesting to notice each horse's metabolism and their relationship with food.
ReplyDeleteMy 16 year old mare is 14.2h and an easy keeper, whereas my 11 year old gelding is 15.2h and more slender. My gelding will have his head in the feeders all day long while my mare will be standing behind him, just hanging out! Sure, she eats, but not at the same rate and amount as my gelding. I would not call her fat and I wouldn't call him skinny, just normal body type for each. I ride endurance, so they get out on longer rides a couple of times a week - weather and my time permitting. They live in a hilly paddock approx. 5 acres (wish it were more) and I'm constantly changing the location of their food and water to make them move! I put the feed low so they have to put their heads down (and straight) so that they get optimum wear on their teeth, otherwise, if you feed high, the horse's lower jaw does not slide forward as it's supposed to - and you end up with way more points on the teeth. (at least that is my experience and reading)
I also have a 23 year old gelding who was a 'show horse' so his teeth were way over-floated (but now they're much better in the 3 years I've had him). He showed up with his ribs showing and fat pads. Now, with his teeth properly working by having an increased surface area to chew on, and orchard grass 24/7 with minerals added, he looks like a new horse! Fat pads have significantly reduced, he's not foot sore (all my horses are barefoot) and he seems very happy.
All my horses nicker to me when they see me (well, except the mare - she just turns her butt to me to scratch it!) and it warms my heart to see them in as natural of an environment as I can make for them. They have roots, rocks, stumps and some other types of native forage in their large paddock as well - adding some variety to their lives.
I mentioned this blog and Juliet's article to a friend who feeds her horses 3-4 times a day (tiny, weighed amounts of hay and beet pulp/some other feed) because she says her horses are fat and would be obese if she used a slow feeder, and I got this in response:
"A few other things to keep in mind ..
wild horses walk about 10 miles per day.
they carry a parasite load.
they live on average only 7-9 years.
foals learn from their elders what's safe to eat.
they experience annual boom and bust (unless someone is providing hay and water)"
Wondering what people would say to this? I feel she missed the point about continual stomach acids and how that may physically hurt.
(sorry for such a long posting! I have lots to say on this!)
Hello Anonymous!
DeleteI don't know that I agree with your friend's assessment of wild horses. I live in Idaho and we have several wild mustang bands in my area. In fact, tours used to be available that will take people out to see these herds in the wild. Because of my choice to adopt mustangs, I chose to go through a state educational program on the wild horses available at that time (2007). Among the many things I learned was that these horses remain in the same basic area as long as food is available to them - they only travel when their food supply runs out; so I don't think they walk long distances every day. Also, I have adopted two mustangs in the past - one was three years old, one was estimated at 18 - 20 years old. But when I got the horses I had my vet out and we did a fecal exam on both horses. Their worm-load was less than my barn horses. The vet explained to me that their worm load was lower because wild horses are not eating their own poop and they do not eat grass that other horses have pooped on. Additionally, their instinct guides them to a variety of different plant life that stimulates their bodies to shed worms. Also, the educational program I went through explained that mustangs get lean in the winter months from traveling to find food, but eat a variety of non-grass forages along the way to keep forage moving through their systems.
Thank you, Renee and "Anonymous" for your excellent postings. Renee, you offered excellent points about wild horses and I'm wondering what the friend had to say about these explanations. It's true that horses do live longer in a domesticated situation -- after all, they are not subjected to predators like they would be in a wild environment. And we give them medical care for injuries that they would not receive in a natural setting. So, it is certainly an improvement for them in that regard -- no argument there. But when it comes to allowing them to make their own feed choices, domesticated horses have none unless they live in a large area with many types of native plants. And my eating the same thing day in and day out, they can actually develop nutritional deficiencies. So, offering variety is a good idea. Even feeding some "whole foods" is worthwhile to give the horse access to trace minerals and different types of fibers.
DeleteI have been trying for some time now to figure out how to provide forage 24/7 in the area where I live...South Florida. We buy hay from feed stores. They get hay delivered every other week. There is one person who rents a warehouse so he can buy hay and store it. He gets it analyzed. I buy his hay and with the analysis I have a custom vit/min mix made up. His hay is very expensive and I cannot afford to buy more so I tried getting a big round bale of coastal. The horses pretty much walked on it and pooped on it. Big waste. So I bought some small bales of coastal to use between feedings. I feed the good stuff 3 times a day and try to keep the coastal available all the time. Very time consuming. The coastal probably throws off the analysis too. I would appreciate any suggestions that wont cost an arm and a leg.
ReplyDeleteIf the "extra" hay is less than 25% or so of the total diet, it won't do horrible things to you balance. Making sure they have available forage is likely as important.
DeleteI have lots of hay nets so can pre-fill several days worth at one time - seems like less work than doing it daily.
Awesome that you can buy analyzed hay - more and more brokers and sellers are doing this.
I ordered a hay net and will try that. I can buy analyzed hay because an individual here believes it is so important that he rents a warehouse to store it. He sells to me but it is very expensive. When you mention 25% do you mean in weight? I do weigh the hay they get but did not think to weigh the "extra" hay. I will.
DeleteYes - by weight but don't need to be fanatical about it : )
DeleteHi Susan, I agree with Patti -- the coastal will work well at 1/4th the hay ration. And also to fill hay nets -- lots of them. That way you have days when you don't have to handle the hay and just enjoy the horses!
DeleteHi Everyone.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I want to thank Dr. Getty for setting up this forum to discuss the matter of Free-choice Forage Feeding. And I've been reading through all the comments--so many interesting responses.
I tend to lean towards Dr. Getty's views and this is because of my own observations over the many years when having owned and competed with horses, not to mention the various types of stabling that I also had to deal with over the years.
I too have always wondered whether horses would be better off eating hay continuously all day long. But when I say "hay" I mean a low carb high fiber type.
At most stables where I have boarded the routine is always turning the horses out during the day for anywhere from 3 hours to 10 hours (depending on the season) and when they are brought in they will find a pile of hay in their box to eat. Now I'd like to interject my current situation.
Some horses, especially the Thoroughbred mare I now ride, simply can't wait to eat her hay, and when she does, she eats it up quite fast. When it's gone, that's it, and she has to wait 'til the next morning to either get more or she turned out. In my view this is not good. I have also noticed the last week or so that the top of the stall door is being chewed on. And she's more irritable especially before we go out for our lesson. She has to wait 'til she's done being worked to get her hay. Since she's not my horse, I really don't have much say in the matter. But if she were mine I would give her more hay (not rich in carbs) a tvarious times during the day. I wonder what the long term effect will be if she continues in this way? One thing is for certain: she loves to be outdoors and then she's always grazing around. I think this mare would be one that would certainly benefit from free-choice forage feeding because she would be healthier, not chewing the doors, and maybe she'd be less spook.
Somewhere on this forum, I think someone said that free-choice forage feeding would make horses calmer and less spooky? Why? Could it be because their metabolism is functioning better when they munch on hay all day (low carb hay)? I would like to hear more about this because the TB mare I ride is a bit spooky and I want to know if something "natural" would help her. She's a lovely horse, very intelligent, very affectionate--but here "eating logistics" is some how not benefiting her.
Would like to hear other peoples' opinions.
Karin Susan
Hi Susan, IMO your mare is suffering from acid pouring into her empty stomach. She is chewing the door to get something to absorb and stop the burning. This is also causing her to stress. Check out www.Freedomfeeder.com and the Freedom Feeder facebook page and see how you could help this mare have forage...even in a boarding situation.
DeleteHi Karin ~
DeleteEven just using small mesh hay nets overnight would help your mare. More and more boarding facilities are using slow feeders in some form (nets, grazers, etc.). It can be tricky getting them started but giving some loose hay at first along with the slow feeder helps them learn.
If the turnout area is overgrazed, hay nets hung around the perimeter or several stationary slow feeders (enough for all horses to access the forage) can help during the day.
Continuous availability of forage will help chewing and, sometimes, other unwanted behavior (I don't like calling them "vices" as somehow that makes it sound like it's the horse's fault).
I often ask people how would they like it if they were locked in a room the size of their bathroom or smaller twelve or more hours a day.
As a PS - I would never work a horse without letting them have at least five minutes or so eating hay first. If they don't have a protective mat (from forage/feed) separating the lower and upper portions of the stomach, the acid will slosh and cause discomfort and/or can cause ulcers.
DeleteWhen going out on trail, I always carry some pellets and allow some grazing stops for the same reason.
Melissa and Patti, thank you for your comments. Haynets are what I usually like to use for such situations, the most practical--I have to check out the exact quality of the hay too.
DeleteHi Karin, I just wanted to address your question about behavior and free-choice. Yes, you are correct in what you heard -- it does calm behavior dramatically. The reason is quite simple -- the horse is no longer in pain. A stomach full of acid is painful and causes ulcerations inside the stomach. You see, the horse's stomach secretes acid continuously -- all day and all night, every minute of the day. Unlike our stomachs where we only release acid when we eat, the horse's stomach releases acid even when empty. The reason for this is because horses are designed to chew to produce saliva, a natural antacid. When they cannot graze of forage, they will chew on whatever they can -- fence posts, wood, even their own manure, in an effort to relieve their discomfort.
DeleteThe horse's stomach is divided into two sections -- the lower glandular region which is protected by a thick mucus lining. And the upper squamous region which has no such protection. When the stomach fills with acid, it sloshes around and reaches the upper portion causing ulcers. Most horses will develop ulcers when stalled without anything to eat -- not all ulcers are symptomatic but they are there 90% of the time.
When a horse is allowed to graze whenever he wants, he feels better. And therefore, he acts better. When he once grabbed at the hay as you brought it out, he will now calmly react to it as if to say, "just put it over there in the corner -- I'll get to it later." And he works better, has a longer attention span, and basically becomes the horse he is meant to be.
Please do this for your horses. You WILL notice a difference.
Juliet Getty :)
And I totally concur with you, Patti on your excellent advice about giving hay before exercising. All for the reasons you and I both describe. Thank you!
DeleteHi Karin,
DeleteJust wanted to share my experience in a similar situation. I have a quarter horse mare that had been deemed "dangerous" because of her spooky behavior. When I bought her, she saw "rattlesnakes" everywhere - the first time I put her on the lunge-line, before I even asked her to move forward, she hyperventilated and passed out (scared me to death, I though I killed her). When she came to I loaded her in the trailer and raced to the vet. They hospitalized her for 3 days and did tests, but could find nothing wrong. They told me that I would just have to give up ever doing anything with her because this behavior was "just her." But I study homeopathy and natural healing for humans and I know that zinc deficiencies can cause extreme reactions to stress. I also had read articles stating that human doctors are having success using zinc and manganese to treat schizophrenia. So I re-evaluated the rations. Dr. Getty will remember this because I probably drove her crazy trying to understand how to balance iron, copper, zinc, and manganese. But within three days of adding extra zinc, copper, and manganese to achieve a 4:1:3:3 ratio, my mare did a complete 180. I can now walk in her stall without fear of her bolting out the door in panic, I can pick up all four feet, and I can now work with her without her hyperventilating and passing out.
Hi Renee,
DeleteJust a question on your mineral balancing (good job, by the way!). I assume that your iron was too high and the other trace minerals were too low in relation to iron. Did you bring the copper, zinc, and manganese levels up to bring them in balance with iron? For example, let's say your iron content is 80 mg/lb of hay and your zinc was only 6 mg/lb and copper was only 5 mg/lb. To bring copper up to 1/4 of iron, you would have to add 15 mg/lb. Is that what you did?
And to bring zinc up to the same level of iron (or 3/4 of it), would add 54 grams (to bring it up to 60). Yes?
And what about manganese. I'm looking at a sample right now -- it has 59 mg/lb, so that would be in the right ratio of 4:3 Fe:Mn with 80 and 59 mg each.
This is how I would approach it - just wanted to see how you were doing it.
Thank you and keep up the very fine work.
Juliet Getty
Thank you Dr. Getty!
DeleteWhat I did is have my pasture grass and hay tested (that part is critical – never guess) – the analysis report for iron came back at 307 ppm DM (both hay and pasture as I buy my hay from the guy next door and our two properties used to be one until the former owners decided to split the lot). I am presently feed 20 lbs DM, so I converted pounds to kilograms (because ppm = mg/kg) and 20 lbs = 9.1 kgs. Because my forage report said my iron is 307 ppm, or 307 mgs/kg DM, I multiplied 307 by 9.1, which indicates my horses are getting 2,793.7 mgs of iron per day (scary!). Then, I balanced my copper, zinc, and manganese based on the recommended 4:1:3:3 ratio. I divided my iron content (2,793.7) by 4 (for the 4:1 part of the ratio) for the appropriate part of copper, which equals 698 mgs of copper. I then took the copper requirement and multiplied it by 3 (for the 1:3:3 part of the ratio) to determine the required amount of zinc and manganese; which works out to 2,095 for zinc and manganese. Then I went back to the forage analysis report and calculated how much copper, zinc, and manganese my horses were getting from their forage in the same manner I calculated the iron content of the forage and the subtracted the required amount to balance to the ratio for the iron from what they were already getting from the forage and that is the amount I supplement.
OMG! I just re-read your post Dr. Getty and I realized that I goofed! I needed to relate the zinc and manganese to the iron, not the copper! NUTS! Ok, gotta redo zinc and manganese! Be back in a few!
DeleteOk, nevermind - (laughing) The figures work out the same. I've been standing outside in the freezing cold with the shoer for four hours - my brain must have frozen! But that's ok! It illustrates what a blessing we have in this forum. Because of Dr. Getty's post, I took a closer look at what I was doing from another perspective and asked myself questions. It worked out alright this time, but if the ratio I was working with was different (4:2:3:3 for example), my figures would have been wrong and I may not have realized it for some time without someone to bounce it of of!
DeleteYou're probably getting tired of hearing this Dr. Getty, but thank you again! Like I said, you're our angel!
Hi Renee -- good job! Your numbers are correct! Glad to keep you on your toes!
DeleteDr. Getty, you are in such a precarious position here. I admire your willingness to step out and steady yourself for the work. May the Lord give you strength!
ReplyDeleteFeeding free-choice is more than just "putting lots of hay out." It embraces a whole (new) way of caring for our horses. It involves choices and some hard work upfront quite frankly. It includes new and updated perspectives on: feed (pasture/hay/supplements/treats/whole foods, etc), housing (no stalling is best, the bigger the area to move in the better - Paddock Paradise systems, or large pastures), healthy immune function (tied into a zillion different things like age, past care, injuries, worming, vaccinations, various stressors), and the work the horse may be asked to do.
It is not just about hay. It is about The Horse. The whole horse. The way he/she was meant to be, is genetically predisposed to be. It requires most horse people to stop..........and open their minds to new science (that can now PROVE & DISPROVE certain areas we once thought were best), reroute old ways of thinking (just because you've always done it a certain way does not make it the best way), be willing to try something new and is shown to be better for the horse as a species.
Sadly, I see many people treat their horses like they were tractors; won't start - kick the fuel tank, won't stop, scream and yell....). Machines to do a job. They are not.
I look forward to hearing all the various discussions here that support the growing basket of knowledge that will allow our horses to thrive (not merely survive) and be more content. There are a whole lot of questions I'm sure. I know I have lots. But I do not, for one minute, think that going back to the "way things used to be" is at all beneficial for our horses.
So ask away. But be open-minded to listen to the responses and keep asking questions (if you're seeking an honest answer and not just being rude). The answers are never black and white (well usually not)...there are dozen of variables involved with the care of our horses...many of which we ignore, or are unaware of, that may be contributing to an issue. Use common sense, trust your gut.
I have listened in on many of Dr. Getty's teleseminars, read her books over and over...NEVER have I heard her say or write a mean word. Her heart's desire is simply to light a better way. She has the science, the experience, and a body of evidence behind her. I don't trust easily - but I trust her. So can you.
Cheers,
Jane & herd
Many in the various horse industries may never wake up to the fact that they're dealing with sensitive sentient beings that deserve far better treatment than they get -- the tractor mentality you mention. In fact, the bigger the prize, probably the less likely they are to ever care. (Of course there are wonderful exceptions to this in almost all horse sports.)
DeleteThe rest of us are striving hard to understand and do what's best for our horses/partners.
Dr Getty is doing a lot of good bringing more awareness to many and offering solid alternatives to old thinking. But with authority and "fame" comes responsibility. She's not the only knowledgeable source out there and no one, not any of us, have all the answers or all the experience or are right all the time. I'm sure Dr Getty would agree and wouldn't be courageous enough to get out there at all if she couldn't allow being called to task sometimes.
It's gotten to the point that leaders are never allowed to say they're wrong or to change their minds without being treated as wishy-washy or untrustworthy or inept. I WISH it weren't so, as someone courageous enough to evolve publically will always get my trust before those entrenched in a point of view.
Greetings Jane,
DeleteAh yes... I have been, and continue to be taken to task for my efforts. As you can imagine, doing this for what's going on 25 years, has not been easy and it has been an uphill climb. I am finally starting to see a glimmer of light, of acceptance, among horse owners. I am even getting more and more veterinarians on board.
I'm often asked why I take the "abuse." Frankly, I don't consider it such, though I've never been a militant type of person. I just want to utilize the education I've had for the better good. I hurt when I see animals suffer, and I want terribly to help.
So, courage is the name of the day. And change is also. You are right. Being entrenched in an idea just for the sake of saving face, does no one any good. Believe me, I have changed along the way, admitted when I am wrong, adjusted my perspective, and done so publicly, because that is the only way to stay true to myself (as well as to others). But I am not wrong here -- time and experience has taught me otherwise.
Along the path that I am currently on, I continue to gather evidence which convinces me that I am correct. Please allow me to explain. I am correct in the sense that what I describe can work for all horses. What is true is that not all horses can be in the type of environment that I'm trying to create. And therefore, there will be failures. And there will be losses. The losses, some fatal (like what you experienced for your precious horse, for which I am very sorry), happen when a horse may be too far along with a poor metabolic rate, or be insulin resistant for most of his life and the body composition has changed, or may already have such damage to his immune system, feet, or level of muscle mass, that reversing this situation would take an absolutely ideal setting, which for many, is hard to create.
But we can get closer to it. What I mean, for example, is that horses should not be stalled. This alone creates so many problems that just feeding more hay, even in a slow feeder, is often too much for the horse to overcome. I also mean leptin resistance, which is a result of high body fat levels -- difficult to reverse and the best way to do it is to exercise the horse. But what if the horse cannot move because of laminitis? Well, we have a problem, perhaps an even insurmountable one. This is what I'm trying to prevent. It is preventable.
What we can change is people's level of knowledge. I talk to so many people who just simply do not know any better. They don't understand how the horse is made on the inside. They don't understand why what is would be normal for us is stressful for them. They don't understand endocrinology and physiology. Ignorance is not a crime. My goal is to help people -- to help people and their horses by opening their eyes.
There are many details that also go into what I do. I evaluate the entire horse's situation from a holistic perspective. And I try to find innovative ways to make the horse's world more compatible with nature. From a dietary perspective, I evaluate minerals such as iron, copper, and zinc, which can be problematic. I evaluate calories, NSC, sugar, lignin, and more to see how the hay is affecting the horse.
I evaluate protein quality to see if the horse is utilizing the amino acids available because a poor quality protein can raise insulin levels as high as pure sugar can, and most people don't realize this.
I evaluate key factors in the diet -- vitamins, and key antioxidants. And I evaluate immune function.
And I evaluate stress because this one factor has the most impact on the hormonal response leading to obesity than any other. My nutrition book is the only one I have come across that has a chapter on stress.
(Continued on the next post since this is getting too long)...
DeleteSo, bottom line... do I ever see cases that do not work? Yes. Do I ever see cases that are impossible? No. Every horse comes into this world with the ability to be whole and healthy. We have created an environment that pushes them in a different direction. And our best efforts to change that, however noble, are often not enough -- not because we don't care or don't want to -- but because it is just not feasible. This is what causes me sadness.
I appreciate your perspective, I do. Mine is of the ideal world, which frankly can be achieved. I achieve it with my own horses. I want it for everyone's. And with added knowledge, desire, some physical and mental effort, it can be done.
My very best wishes,
Juliet Getty
I would like to add one thing. I need to clarify what I mean by "ideal." I did not mean to imply that my horses have THE ideal, but rather that they have AN ideal situation taking into consideration that no place is perfect. My horses are healthy for the most part but have histories that have led to some problems that I am doing my best to fix (bone spurs, pre-Cushings, and arthritis). But, here's my point... there are many ways to make things good for horses. There are many ways to meet their needs. And I welcome the conversation to allow horses to live as they are intended, making adjustments for them to that end. Thank you for listening.
DeleteI guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.
DeleteI routinely take into account all the factors you mention. While I haven’t met Patti, I know she is a fine and long-experienced nutritionist here in the Southwest, she considers all these many factors too affecting nutrition and health, and she wouldn’t have backed me up on my conclusions without having solid evidence herself.
None of the horses in my “study group of 30” were IR before allowing them free access to hay (-nets or slow feeders.) None were significantly overweight. My own horses have always been turned out 10-12 hours a day and are exercised frequently. Nobody in the group has a Paddock Paradise set-up, something that would have helped no doubt but not many in this region approach the ideal you might dream of. Most of these horses are not stall-bound but a sandy, dirt turnout is home.
So “in general”, I heartily support your advice and the help you give; my issue is still with “all horses” because I truly think that’s misleading and dangerous advice. Most horse owners don’t have the knowledge they need, not because they don’t care or aren’t smart, but don’t have the time to spend digging deep and long in the complex study of nutrition. They have to trust people who have and those people carry the burden of not misleading. That’s tough when for any subject within the field, an article must necessarily leave some details out.
I have your book; it should replace most “textbooks” out there that are still being used.
With that, I’ll get off your blog since it IS your blog and since it’s clear many would ride into hell behind you if you went, dismissing any cautions some might offer. (Not at all suggesting that’s the place for you. I wish you the best.)
Thank you, Jane. I wish you the best, as well.
DeleteI have been trying to figure out the best slow feeder/track system this is year 4. Currently use double small hole hay nets in the stalls for the geldings for their afternoon feedings, my dainty eating mare needs only a single net. They graze over night, 8-12 hrs depending on time of year, all wear muzzles except at time the older mare does not. When not on pasture, I use an assortment of double nets, Nibble Nets, and hard sided feeder boxes. The boxes started out with a chain link fence "topper" and they emptied the boxes of a bale of hay within about 2 hours. Nest, I tried weaving an assortment of ropes in between the links, they chewed all the ropes.
ReplyDeleteCurrently I have one topper with heavy duty nylon 3/4" webbing, first woven one direction, which worked well with last years hay, now I have woven it the other way also. Basically there is a square knot inside each "diamond" of the chain link fence. This is working great with the softer hay I have this year.
I don't know IF I will have 24/7 hay available with this method in 2 feeders, that remains to be seen. I also need to ask the vet if their teeth are being compromised.
My older mare was looking like I'd be burying her, blood work showed SE as being o.k., but adding extra SE turned her around.
My IR/laminitis horse is doing great with the muzzles, (Yes, he grazed all year this year!) and my slow feeder set up, and a "track system" to move one. Along with extra magnesium, and probiotics.
I don't know if I can reach the point of having hay available 24 hours a day, and still maintain my hay "budget" but I know I am very close with my current setups, so I would say don't give up, just find what works for YOU and YOUR situation.
BTW, I must add; my horses, had 8 one time, also did fine on 2 feedings a day...at dusk and dawn. I am sure they were without hay for many hours every night in the winter months, and they also got sweet feed! Shudder....I would NEVER go that route again.
Hi - and thanks for writing! I'm so glad you stopped the sweet feed! That, combined with an empty stomach and you have so much acid buildup - it is so damaging to the digestive tract.
DeletePerhaps one of my slow feeders manufacturers can chime in here regarding your feeding setup...
I would caution you about overdoing the grazing muzzle. They are truly not meant to be worn for hours -- perhaps 3 to 4 hours per day. The rest of the time, you can either allow pasture grazing during "safe" times of the day or night, or put the horse in a dry lot with free-choice grass hay (that has been tested, of course, for its suitability). Grazing muzzles may not give the horse enough to chew to prevent ulcers. And can slow down the metabolic rate, as well as cause frustration (stress) which has the hormonal component we're trying to avoid.
Balance your horse's nutrition to your hay, find a slow feeder that your horse likes (not all that easy) and provide turnout AND exercise. It's alot of work! But if you can discipline yourself to provide these essentials you will save a fortune in vet bills and a boatload of worry and heartache. An overweight, IR, or lamininic horse is atleast ten times the work, worry and expense of a healthy horse.
ReplyDeleteSo true! and Thank you! Let me reassure you -- after all the work, worry, and expense, the goal is to have a healthy horse that can be less labor intensive and live a more normal life!
DeleteI have read information that night time temps of 40° and less increases the sugar/starch levels. Therefore, an IR horse should not be turned out, even during the day, on that grass. My question: does that hold true for warm season grasses? I have bermuda which begins to go dormant at thise temps. Does bermuda going dormant still retain unsuitable levels? I am aware cold season grasses should not be grazed after 40° nights.
ReplyDeleteHi Dottie, Warm season grasses do go dormant at higher temperatures and are therefore safer in terms of their sugar and starch content. When I lived in Texas, and fed strictly bermuda and buffalo grass, the grasses would turn brown when it got below 60 degrees. To be sure though, spread the grass apart -- make sure there is no green at the roots. It can be brown only on top. If it is brown clear through, you're okay.
DeleteAnd to be absolutely sure, you can always test it. It's really easy to do and I test my pasture all the time. Go on Equi-Analytical Labs website for instructions - www.equi-analytical.com. You'll need to email them for forage collecting kits (nothing more than a freezer bag and order form). And order their least expensive test since you're only needing the sugar and starch levels -- I believe it's called their Fast Track test. If you do this, let me know what you find.
Juliet Getty :)
Thank you so much Dr Getty. I will check then to make sure it's completely brown down to the ground. I have seen her pull the roots up in a long strand. So I wonder about that. If I send some in to be tested, I will let you know the results.
DeleteSo far I have sent 4 different brome batches of bought hay for testing. One had sugar/starch level of 16. I fed that all summer long after soaking it. She kept gaining. So I had the soaked hay tested and it only reduced the sugar/starch to 14.7. No wonder she gained.
I recently tested before I purchased some native prairie...wow...what a difference. The sugar/starch is 8.9...a winner with DE at .83. One worry is the ADF and NDF high, respectively 39.6 & 66.1. However I think you have said it is difficult to find hay with good numbers on the ADF and NDF.
I also purchased (after testing) some brome with DE at .79, sugar/starch at 11.4 but again ADF and NDF respectively 39.6 & 62. I plan to mix this brome in with the prairie during the winter.
Now for my HURRAH !!! Dance is finally dropping weight with the introduction of this tested prairie hay. I am sooo happy to see her neck look more normal, without all the wrinkles when she turns her head. With the reduction of belly fat, her legs even appear longer. I feed her in a 1.25 " small hole feeding net, full, ALL THE TIME! She gets turned
out....muzzled...for 2-3 hrs in the mornings before 10am.
Thank you so much for being there for us. <3
Oops...my name got left off my reply....DottieL
DeleteIn reply to your question on our email: the color green is still plainly visible in my field of bermuda, so no need to check down to the ground yet. I sprigged my property with World Feeder Bermuda in 2002. That strain of bermuda greens up earlier and remains green longer than some of the others. It is also a very finely stemmed bermuda which is quite different from my naturally occurring bermuda on my place. It does take fertilizer to do well. No different I guess from any other nice pasture grass.
DeleteHi Dottie -- I am so pleased to hear about Dance's weight loss! All because you let her eat as she should and you gave her a hay that was safe to eat.
DeleteThe high ADF and NDF is a measure of digestibility so the 66.1 NDF indicates that there is a fair amount of lignin in this hay that cannot be digested. This then translates into a lower DE since lignin does not provide any calories. So, it is not a concern. Hay does have to be supplemented with a good vitamin supplement because it has lost most of its vitamins E, C, D, and beta carotene (which is made into vitamin A).
About the green color - since it is still growing, you might want to consider having it tested. It's a snapshot at best, but you can do two times of day - early morning just before the sun rises (best case), and again late in the afternoon on a sunny day (worst case). If you go to Equi-Analytical's website, they offer instructions.
Keep up the excellent work!
I was recently asked about the issue of cribbing. I have found feeding free-choice, and offering the horse complete freedom to move about and enjoy the company of other horses to be the best cure. I have experienced this personally with my daughter's horse.
ReplyDeleteI need to share a quote from from Joe Camp's recent book, "Horses and Stress":
" What happens to him [the horse] when he is made to live in a 12X12 stall, inside some structure, with no movement whatsoever, and no herd for safety; where he cannot see a predator coming after him from over the hill? Stress. Big time. Ever wonder why a horse starts cribbing? Spend a day, full 24-hour day, in a horse stall in some barn. Seriously. Do it. Without any other humans around. No one to talk to. See how crazed you are after that experience. And you aren't even a prey animal. You're a predator. You're supposed to like small cozy caves. Horses don't.
And your body doesn't need to move continually, virtually around the clock, to keep itself working as its supposed to work You might better off if you did walk all those miles, but it's not necessary for function. With horses, it is. And you don't need other humans to feel safe and secure. Horses need other horses.
So wahat happens when that stress bubbles up and he starts cribbing? The humans put a "miracle" cribbing collar on him, or a muzzle, and/or paint the stall with some bittter solution, feed him various mineral mixes, or -- yes, they're available -- put an electrical shock collar on him. All when there is a very simple solution to the problem. Eliminate the source of the stress. Get the horse out of the stall.
Have you ever heard of a wild horse cribbing? Or a domestic horse who is outside moving 24/7? I haven't."
Actually, I have seen domestic horses moving outside 24/7 who crib. We have been able to reduce their cribbing by giving them feed 24/7 via Freedom Feeders but it's very difficult to stop the addiction once it is ingrained from previous bad feeding and stall situations.
DeleteYes, Melissa -- there are certainly cases where it is ingrained from an early start and can even be genetically influenced. But it can be eased somewhat, even in the most stubborn cases -- it takes a long time, with lots of patience. I had one case that took 4 years but it finally worked.
DeleteI have made slow feeders from water troughs covered in metal grates. The troughs are 100 gallons and the grates are 2X4 feet in diameter with 3 inch square openings purchased from gridwall.com. I can put hay out in these slow feeders and come back 8 hours later and there is still hay left. My horses are now never without forage, and much happier. Interestingly, if there is hay also on the ground they will eat out of the feeders instead. I believe they think of them like a fun toy that feeds also :)
ReplyDeleteLaura
Good job on your slow feeder. We have found the same with the majority of our customers. When their horses transition onto the Freedom Feeders, they opt to eat out of the nets rather than what's loose on the ground. I believe that more than a toy it's because instinctively they are searching with their lips for the pieces sticking out of the net or grid just as they would when searching for the best pieces of grass. Then the restriction they experience through the net or grid also mimics the grass pulling out of the ground. It's just more natural for them. Also, by eating from some sort of restrictive product such as a net or grid system, the horses get smaller bites, chew more and salivate more further reducing acid because the saliva is more alkaline. Because of the smaller bites, they also digest their food better even over just having free choice hay on the ground. This is why Freedom Feeder Slow Feed "Pasture in a Net" makes so much sense. Please visit FreedomFeeder.com for more information.
DeleteThis issue hasn't been addressed on here yet, but I'm certain I can learn something, from one of you who has faced this, or just has more knowledge than me. Last September I purchased my second horse, a TB/Perch, approx. age 16-18, and by Dec. the vet diagnosed her with heaves. I listened to his advice and put her on Trihist (caused anhidrosis BTW), and inhaled steroids via a nebulizer machine for acute episodes. We have only used oral steroids once. I finally convinced the BO to NEVER dry lot her, and put her in a pasture over the summer. The round bale was out of the question as well. During this time I found Dr. Getty and her books and teleseminars, articles, etc. and READ EVERYTHING. Luckily, I have never believed in putting a horse in a stall (EVER), even when I worked in a barn that offered "TOP OF THE LINE CARE." A horse needs to run free. We recently moved barns as our old one was not going to be able to accommodate her this winter. She would be on a MINISCULE dry lot with it being sprayed into mud if it got too dusty. NOT happening. Our new barn has several fields, so if my mare needs to have her own feeding set up she can (and she will, I am assuming). She currently gets pasture grass, occasional T&A, and is still with the herd. This will soon change as soon as a round bale is provided for said herd. I also provide alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, ground flax seed, pre and pro-biotics, joint supplements, Triple Crown ration balancer, spirulina, increased Vit. C, E, B, DMG, and salt. I followed your fighting formula faithfully when she had full blown heaves, but have backed off a bit during the summer to what you saw above. Gearing up to start the Fighting Formula again. I guess what keeps me up at night, is knowing how much hay to put away for winter as I have no idea how much she'll eat daily. I am also confounded by having it available via a freedom feeder--I'm worried it will mold after soaking, and then sitting so she has constant access. I plan on purchasing from Larsen's here in Williston, FL and the hay is analyzed. I'd like to give her 70% quality coastal, and 30% T&A or O&A. I like the look of the O&A better, but understand it comes with elevated phosphorus? They sell by the ton. Is there a way to estimate (roughly) how much hay a horse will go through with free feeding via a freedom feeder or equivalent? Also, I am not familiar with small track systems (what is this?), and multiple feeding stations sounds like lots of slow feed bale nets? I am HOPING you all have ideas for me, because I am feeling somewhat overwhelmed, especially with the molding issue. I board so she will be provided new batches of hay twice daily, and I DO NOT want her running out. Buying hay is something I remember doing from our Amish neigbors as a kid, and we filled the hay loft. Sadly, my BO only wants me to bring in a half ton, and she'd be happiest if I brought in what I needed in smaller amounts which, can't happen as I need to know what my hay has going (or not going) for it. I may also have to put my gelding in with my mare if my BO doesn't buy her round bales from a reputable buyer. (She buys from a few different farmers during the winter, which is NOT ideal IMO.) I want it to be tested, and have that info. My gelding is 14 and an easy keeper, but wouldn't it be best to feed him analyzed hay too? Also, I assume he needs hay besides coastal, on the up side my BO loves to learn new things, so I will begin bringing out your articles Dr. Getty, and plan on purchasing "The HORSE BIBLE" LOL, for her for Christmas. Any advice would be SO, SO appreciated, and I apologize for the book I just wrote!
ReplyDeleteYour horse will consume 2-2.5% of his body weight in forage so if he weighs 1000# he will consume approximately 20-24# in a day. On average a 110# bale lasts a 1000# horse about 4-6 days depending on the time of year (trying to keep warm) and work load and their digestive system's efficiency. I always plan for 1 bale a week per horse plus a couple extras. I have a warmblood and 3 thoroughbreds ranging from 1000-1400#. We have no grass pasture, only dry lot with a track system on 2.14 acres You can see a sky view of our set up at http://freedomfeeder.com/natural-solutions/holistic-facility-design. Everyone is out together 24/7 with the option to go into the barn stalls. There are 2 bale nets standing in the box stalls and Extended Day nets spaced through out the track system. We allow the outside nets to go empty when the weather is bad to encourage the horses to stay close to the barn but they always move from stall to stall.
DeleteThere is no need to be concerned about mold when feeding soaked hay through your Freedom Feeder. MANY people use their FFs to soak their hay for IR horses to remove the sugar and it works great to remove dust for horses with heaves issues. They are made from shrimp fishing nylon and are designed to hold up to that kind of abuse. Mold grows where there is no light and no air. Feeders you need to be concerned with would be those with solid sides or sections where no light or air gets into. Since the Freedom Feeder is an open knotless woven mesh the hay gets plenty of light and air even with a full bale net which holds up to 110# of hay, it won't be in there for more than a week. Typically hay that is moldy was baled wet to start with and has had months to grow inside of the bale.
Multiple feeding stations can be 2 in opposite ends of the paddock to create movement. Some people prefer to use smaller capacity nets because they think the horses will just stand at one station until it empties. I don't find this to be the case with my personal herd. They are always looking to the other station because it might have something different in it or, they prefer different station locations at different times of the day. Using the larger capacity nets reduces your work load.
Hope this helps.
Hi Jacksongrrl -- My 20 year old Arab cross has heaves (for the past 10 years) and I have used Cinch nets to provide her with 24/7 soaked hay for the past 14 months (5 nets, clipped into water trough "feeders" placed around a track). Occasionally, mold is an issue in the summer, but only if I stuff the nets too full (the very middle of the net is the issue). My vet recommended only putting out enough for one 24 hour period (they never run out, because I stagger when I put the bags out) and this has helped. I live in Golden, CO at 7900 ft., so I do have to keep an eye on the wet hay in the summer to ensure it does not mold, but for the most part have been able to avoid this issue. My two horses are each 100 pounds over their ideal weight (rated a 6/7), according to my vet (who believes this is what they have self-regulated at), but I believe this extra weight is worth the benefits of 24/7 forage at this time. I do have a track system (Paddock Paradise) and ride or work my two horses about an hour a day, 5-6 days a week and they are never stalled. I have a bit of pasture, but only an hour or two a day. My mare with heaves did the best when we lived in Minnesota and was on pasture 24/7, but this is not possible where we live now, so I try to compensate as best I can. I hope my experience is helpful!
DeleteHi Jacksongrrl --- First, a big Thank You for all your support of my work.
DeleteI believe you got some excellent ideas regarding mold and how much to feed using slow feeders from Melissa and Kristen. I hope they helped answer your questions.
Regarding which type of hay to get, you mentioned that you were concerned about orchardgrass having too much phosphorus. This is not the case with all orchardgrass hay, but I have seen more phosphorus than calcium in this type of hay more than any other. Even so, it doesn't happen frequently. So, go ahead and get the Orchard/Alfalfa mix because even if it should have a lot of phosphorus, the alfalfa will balance it out with extra calcium.
Melissa and Kristen, Wow! Thank YOU SO, SO much, both of you!! Your information has been SO, SO helpful, and eased my mind immensely. Thank God for Dr. Getty, because I'd be up the creek (or doing MANY weird experiments) without her information, and her grand idea of a forum for us to gather information from! I thank you both for taking the time to answer my questions!!! And so does my mare Shantih to be sure! Time to purchase freedom feeders, just have to decide on the size now! Boy, that sounds easy! :D
ReplyDeleteOne more quick suggestion, Jacksonsgrrl -- My husband installed a pulley system in our wash stall because the soaked hay is very heavy. I submerge the bagged hay (entirely) in a wash trough with water, then use the pulley system to haul the hay net up and let it drip dry for a few minutes before I put it in a wheelbarrow. Just another suggestion :)
DeleteWhat I find ironic is when people use the cost as the reason for not feeding free choice hay. It cuts into the hay budget. Well I have seen both sides of this issue and here is my observation. My daughter who is a natural hoof care practioner has her 2 horses on a Paddock Paradise, free choice grass hay fed in slow feeder nets, minerals, etc. Her horses are not dewormed on a schedule but only when needed and the same for vaccines. Her horses have never coliced and other than injuries sustained in the paddock are never seen by a vet. Her friend however follows very traditional horse care - horse is stalled, in shoes and fed on a schedule, wormed on a schedule and vaccines the same. This poor horse suffers from all sorts of ailments and the vet and farrier are constantly at the barn. Who is spending the most money? Not to mention that my daughter's 2 horses are full of life and happy to see us while this other horse looks dead on her feet. If you can't afford to feed them properly then why own them? Cindy
ReplyDeleteBravo Cindy! I too am a natural hoof care practitioner and keep my horses just as your daughter does with the same results. In helping customers struggle with this idea of hay costing more to free feed, we have found that once a horse is transitioned to forage it's really only a matter of about 1-2 more bales a month depending on the time of year and work load (that's 100# bales). In this part of the country that's an additional $30 a month for our horses to be eating correctly. No colic, no stall destruction, no ulcers (that I'm aware of), teeth care is only needed every 2 years instead of every year, no toxic worming every 8 weeks, no vaccines, no vet calls (we do herbal immune support and wormers only when necessary), no farrier bills. Talk about saving money!
DeleteI have to say, that over the past 6 yeas since we started Freedom Feeder, the mentality has changed drastically. When we go to trade shows, we aren't having to explain why to feed this way nearly as much as when we started in 2008.
While this forum is fantastic for helping us help each other, we are of the same mind set. We all need to continue to gently educate others who are still ignorant as we are the advocates for the horses. The horses need our help and ARE benefiting from it... even if it's one horse at a time.
Well said, Cindy!
DeleteKaren Locklair
Music to my ears! And one other very interesting observation about the cost of the hay... when a horse is allowed to self-regulate his intake, he more times that not will eat less than he did when he inhaled his hay because it wasn't always there. So, owners actually end up spending less on hay than they did before!
DeletePrevention is not only less expensive; it brings back the joy of horse ownership because everyone is happy -- the horses and their owners.
Great job, ladies!
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to mention to those struggling with heaves that the prescription product fluticasone inhalers have been a integral part of keeping my horse breathing easily. I was very depressed when I found out that the inhalers were over $500 per month at my local pharmacy. I did some research and found them at a reputable canadian pharmacy for about $50 per month at the dose my horse takes now. We did start at a higher dose and wean down to where he is comfortable. It is the same product and the same manufacturer. Talk to your veterinarian if you feel this is an option for you.
Laura
Laura- I have recently read a small summary of a study about the fluticasone being trialed, and having some astounding results. I was impressed enough to try to find the author of the article to write and find out more ( the whole study) in order to find out how to go about getting the dosage amounts and finding out where to purchase it. Somehow, I didn't think my tiny little Flonase bottles would make a dent for my big mare! ;) At the time I could find nothing but dead ends, not even contact information for the author. I'm so happy you posted this because
ReplyDeleteI was resigned to using Albuterol & Ipatropium Bromide for acute episodes once again. Do you think you could send me information on this pharmacy in Canada? My email is: pinkcurlytail@yahoo.com... I will also discuss it with my new vet. We fired our last one, his answer for heaves was Trihist (awful) and steroids (DEX!,) really, not even Ventipulmin (sp?) at least, and keeping her away from a round bale. That was it. The vet we just started with seems VERY competent, and I am hopeful will actually think that things besides pharmaceuticals can help!!! I would be so much more comfortable using fluticasone too, the side effects seem much less severe! What method do you use for the inhalation aspect? Do you give it via a nebulizer machine or a metered puff dosing? THANKS for your comment, I'm very hopeful about this being another treatment in our "arsenal", and in our quest to keep our girl happy and healthy!
Also to KRISTIN--Thanks for the pulley idea, I was wondering how we were going to drain off most of the water if we go the large FF route!!
Mindy
My family and I just purchased a house on 3 acres in CA. My horse is 15 and has always been fed alfalfa twice a day. I've recently started researching free feeding using the freedom feeder nets. I'm not sure how to start and glad I found this forum. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated
ReplyDeleteHi Clevenger Ranch, I am so pleased to see that you are working toward feeding grass hay free-choice. Grass hay (as Melissa mentioned -- bermuda, timothy, etc.) should always be available in those nets -- there should always be some left over in the morning. If your horse runs out, he will not get the message that he can walk away and the hay will still be there and he will continue to overeat.
DeleteIn addition to grass hay, free-choice, 24/7 -- you can continue to feed alfalfa as a "dessert" because alfalfa boosts the overall protein quality of the diet. One protein source (e.g., grass hay) limits the horse's ability to build and repair tissue and can actually raise insulin levels just like sugar can. When you combine protein sources (e.g., grass plus alfalfa) you give the horse enough amino acids to utilize in producing new body proteins, so insulin is not affected.
Keep up the good work!
Juliet Getty
Hi Clevenger Ranch and welcome to Freedom Feeding:) Congratulations on your new home. We are also in CA, where did you purchase?
ReplyDeleteYou have already started by researching free feeding at FreedomFeeder.com. To start transitioning your horses until you get your nets, add lunch, dinner and a bedtime meals of a flake of forage (bermuda, timothy, orchard or teff) to your horse's diet and eliminate one feeding of alfalfa. This will start to get him satiated physically.
Once you purchase your nets, you will be transitioning your horse to "Freedom Feeding" which will slow them down and reduce waste. Start by using the bag as a supplemental feeder filled with low calorie, high fiber forage in addition to what you have been feeding the horse in his normal feeder or on the ground. This will help to keep your horse from being frustrated while learning to use the hay net. Never let the net go empty. Each time the nets go empty you have to start over to build their trust that they will never be without hay. As your horse learns to use the Freedom Feeder, reduce the amount of feed on the ground or in their old feeder. Alfalfa will become a supplement feeding just enough to keep his top line up. Over a short time, your horse will prefer grazing from the net.
At first he may EAT, EAT, EAT, but usually within a month even the most aggressive eaters slow down. Part of it is mental, as they have to learn and trust that they will never have to worry when they will be fed again. At first, some horses may bloat, but once they’ve built that trust and are satiated they’ll start walking away, the food consumption balances out and so do their tummies. I also like to recommend a round of psyllium and a good vitamin/minineral/probiotic supplement. (Like Equipride.com)
Here is the link to the Instructions for Freedom Feeders: http://freedomfeeder.com/hay-net-instructions
Your nets will also come with an instruction card which is very informative. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.
Melissa Auman, Mfg. Freedom Feeder
Info@FreedomFeeder.com
Love the concept but how should I implement it with over 20 minis and some donkeys. At the moment they are on pasture about 3 hours in the morning then on a "dry lot" for the rest of the day with a nibble mid afternoon and 17 slow feeder hay nets at night.
ReplyDeleteI'm paranoid about Founder. Have 2 chronic founderers, healthy now but cannot have grass ever.
The logistics have me putting things off.
Also I have 3 who look like they are about to explode (they are so fat) and a couple whom are quite thin. Any more feed and the fatties will explode I fear.
I hate what I'm doing to them. This is the 4th time I've started writing this then deleted so this time I'll just jump in.
I have one mini donkey and really need to hear success stories with these guys. I would LOVE to be able to have her on free choice. I absolutely recognize the health benefits, but I am not confident that she won't founder. She was very overweight when I got her, is getting better now, but it's slow and hard won weight loss by using dry lot, slow feed hay nets, and carefully weighing the hay she gets. She still eats it so fast I really worry about how she spends hours with nothing to eat.
DeleteBoth minis and donkeys have the same need to be fed forage at all times (they are different, however, which I'll get to in a bit). The first and most important factor is to test your hay. You can go to www.equi-analytical.com and request a forage-collecting kit. You don't necessarily need a probe that they want you to buy. It's best, but not necessary as long as you take clumps of hay from the inside of about 15 bales. Order their "Equi-Tech" test which I believe they charge $28 for (well-spent investment).
DeleteWhen you get the report, the WSC + Starch should be less than 12% to feed safely on a free-choice basis. If it is slightly higher than that, look at the ESC + Starch -- that should be less than 10% and then you would be okay to feed it free choice.
Slow feeders are an excellent approach. The key is to allow these animals to self-regulate by removing the insulin resistance that they are imposing on their bodies as a survival mechanism.
I have two things I would like you to read:
(1) "Bring Back the Horse's Instincts" -- http://gettyequinenutrition.biz/library/bringbackthehorsesinstincts.htm
2) "The Easy Keeper" -- http://gettyequinenutrition.biz/teleseminars/teleseminarbooks/spotlightonequinenutritionteleseminarseries.htm This book is one of several in my Spotlight on Equine Nutrition Series.
I also have articles in my library on my website: www.gettyequinenutrition.com
About minis vs donkeys -- minis are simply miniature horses and have the same dietary needs (only less content). Donkeys need a lower amount of protein than minis (or horses) and therefore, their hay should have no more than 10% crude protein. Donkeys also cannot tolerate much fat, so be sure to avoid any feeds with added fat content. However, omega 3s from ground flax is very helpful in lowering insulin levels so some is worthwhile for both minis and donkeys.
I hope this is helpful and please keep me posted.
Juliet Getty :)
I would look at the NSC in your hay, make sure its VERY low as all of your horses are super easy keeper types. How large are the holes in your slow feeders? I would recommend that you use 1" to 1.5" holes MAX. Many of the less expensive nets that say they are slow feeders actually have 2" or larger holes and horses can get too much out too fast. Especially your minis and donkeys. You could also double up some of your existing bags so you slow them down more without adding to your hay net investment. Freedom Feeders do come in 1" mesh if you need extras.
ReplyDeleteThe idea is for them to have low calorie, high fiber hay available for as much time as possible to keep the metabolism up and working. You also need to make sure to have proper minerals available, especially magnesium. One really good product is the Equilix by Sweetpro.com They are a hard vitamin, mineral, pre and probiotic block that the horses can go to free choice.
Alas Equilix is not available here in Oz.
DeleteI still haven't started. The thought of my super fat ponies stuffing their little faces all day and all night is more than I can cope with LOL.
My hay is "native pasture" but hasn't been tested. I know native pasture is supposed to be much lower in sugars than ''improved pasture''. My supplier will be harvesting a new lot soon and when I get some of that I will have it tested.
Love the concept. Hate the current regime. SCARED.
Do test the native hay. It is not necessarily low in sugars.Native hay was reccomended for my three fat drafts and two donkeys. It turned out to be 15% NSC. The weather condition and timing of harvest seems to be the important factor.Some local hay farmers will harvest for low sugar if they know a particular customer will purchase a worth while amount. Good Luck
DeleteWhen you get your test results, look at two things (both on the as-sampled basis):
Delete1) NSC: This is calculated by adding WSC + Starch and should be less than 12%.
2) ESC + Starch -- this should be less than 10%. And if this is less than 10% but your NSC is slightly above 12%, you're okay since the difference is fructans, which do not significantly contribute to insulin elevation.
How do I go about starting my horse on free choice? Do I just put out several bales and keep refilling his supply?
ReplyDeleteThis goes along with my previous question. My horse lives on approx. 2 acres and is not stalled. He has access to a stall but is never shut in. I currently feed him twice a day. So I'm not sure how to start offering free choice forage. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteMartha
Hi Martha, The way to start is to first have your hay tested to make sure it is suitable for free-choice feeding. This is important only if your horse is overweight or has an insulin resistant-related disorders.
DeleteThen, once you know that your hay is suitable with low levels of sugar and starch (NSC less than 12%), you start by putting more hay than your horse can possibly eat. At first, he will overeat but the key is that he never runs out, not even for a few minutes. Once he gets the message that he always has hay, that he can walk away from it and it is still there, he will start to self-regulate his intake and gradually eat less and less.
His weight will regulate, his behavior will become more steady, and his digestive system will be healthy.
I talk about this in detail in my books, but I outline the steps in my book, "Easy Keeper," part of my Spotlight on Equine Nutrition Series. You can access this title and other by going to: http://gettyequinenutrition.biz/TeleSeminars/TeleseminarBooks/SpotlightonEquineNutritionTeleseminarSeries.htm
Please keep me posted.
Juliet Getty
Hi Martha;
ReplyDeleteI am the inventor of Freedom Feeder, we started the slow feed net industry in 2007. Freedom Feeders allow your horse to have access to forage 24/7. The small mesh forces horses to get small bites of food encouraging them to chew more which increases saliva and reduces acidity in their stomach. They also contain the hay which greatly reduces hay waste which is a problem with just throwing the hay on the ground. To transition your horse to Freedom Feeding, start by using the bag as a supplemental feeder filled with low calorie, high fiber forage in addition to the horse’s normal ration. This will help to keep your horse from being frustrated while learning to use the hay net. Never let the nets to empty. As your horse learns to use the Freedom Feeder, reduce the amount of feed on the ground or in their old feeder. Over time, your horse will prefer grazing from the bag.
At first they will EAT, EAT, EAT, but usually within a month even the most aggressive eaters slow down. Part of it is mental, as they have to learn and trust that they will never have to worry when they will be fed again. At first, some horses may bloat, but once they’ve built that trust and are satiated they’ll start walking away, the food consumption balances out and so do their tummies.
It is also suggested that while transitioning your horse to any free feed program that you incorporate a round of psyllium, digestive aid and probiotics to help the system adjust to having more food. AS ALWAYS provide lost of clean water closely available to encourage the horses to drink. http://freedomfeeder.com/hay-net-instructions
Hello! I am new to your forum and am pleased.to find others who value looking at the whole horse when figuring out health issues. Thank you Dr. Getty for focusing on such an underestimated factor. I have a dilemma. I started feeding with slow feeder nets 6 months ago-- they are small so i fill them twice a day. I have learned now that their holes are too big so they need to be updated. I would like to try a total freedom feeder set up but my property has no pasture, only high desert dirt and some coarse sand. Additionally it is often extremely windy here.My girls are fed on rubber mats which I sweep twice a day to help prevent sand colic. This is a worry to me especially since my quarter horse went through colic surgery once already. Her previous owners fed on nothing but sand. Thus i dont hang hay nets on the fence because of both the wind and the sand worries. So my dilemma is can I set up freedom feeding without putting nets all around the property and will it be as effective?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I have minimal hay storage so testing each load of hay would bankrupt me. Is there a free feed mineral that anyone has found is good?
Hi, You are right, many of the slow feeders on the market are made from a twisted, knotted polypropolene in a 2"+ mesh opening. We have found that the optimal size is 1.5" for beginners. Many of our customers here in California set their horses up with the Freedom Feeder Full Bale nets using a large tub to put the net into. Not only does this keep the net and hay out of the sand but there's almost zero waste. You can see it here: http://freedomfeeder.com/store/products/freedom-feeder-bale-net. I would recommend that you still put up one feeding station per horse or if you have one horse put the hay in one area and the water in another so he moves from the hay to the water to increase his movement. I full 3-string bale will last 5-7 days for an average horse once they are satiated and fully transitioned to freedom feeding. You won't need to be sweeping constantly either :) Check out Equilix.com for a great free feed mineral, pre/probiotic, block. Every horse that we've put it on looks fantastic and it's a perfect power partner with your Freedom Feeder regimine. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.
DeleteHi "Anonymous" -- Melissa Auman is very helpful in assisting you in setting up an appropriate system.
DeleteTo prevent sand colic, it is critical that the horse have a full cecum. That means that hay must always be available and the bags should never run empty. You see, the cecum's entrance and exit are both at the top. So, the only way for the sand to get out is for the cecum to be full. When it contracts, it pushes the sand out the top. If empty, or not full enough, the sand settles on the bottom, leading to sand colic.
Please keep me posted on your progress.
Best wishes,
Juliet Getty :)
I've been absent from this forum for a while, but it is only because I have been in a research frenzy and I've made a breakthrough that I feel I must share. The most important aspect of my breakthrough has completely solidified something I have learned over the last few years. DO NOT GIVE YOUR HORSE ANY SUPPLEMENT, HERB, OR FOLK REMEDY UNTIL YOU TEST YOUR FORAGE AND KNOW AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR HORSE IS ALREADY GETTING (only in caps for emphasis). This is critical to making any feeding program effective and to protect your horse from the backlash of "guessing." Ok, now for the recap - all of my horses are rescues, all of them suffer from a variety of medical problems that vets have not been able to diagnose and correct, so I started investigating their nutritional situation, had my forage tested, bought the NRC Horse Nutrition book, got involved with Dr. Getty, and began a tremendous odyssey that has lead me to the following understanding.
ReplyDeleteAll grass forage is high in iron and potassium. NEVER buy a supplement that contains iron or potassium without confirmed forage tests that show a deficiency and with the recommendation of an equine nutritionist that you research and trust. I know its expensive, but its nothing compared to the expense and heartbreak you and your horse will suffer from mineral imbalances in their diet. My case in point:
I discovered a while ago that my iron levels in my forage were 307 mgs/kgs - too high, add zinc and copper, ok great! And I saw moderate improvement in my horses, but the underlying problems remained. What I discovered in my recent research binge is that all grass is too high in potassium for horses, but that they can adjust to the high potassium if they have enough sodium. If they don't have enough sodium, potassium will replace sodium in the cells and even though both minerals are cations, they don't work the same way and they reduce the absorption of the sodium that is available. So the real kicker in this situation is that the body, in response to what is now a dietary sodium deficiency, triggers glands to release hormones that cause the body to retain salt. These extra hormones then create a hormone imbalance and the problems from that are too vast and various to name here. I found out that my potassium is scary high, and oddly enough, that my chloride is also high while my sodium is low. And that has turned out to be the main root of all of my horses' problems. Because of the specific nature of my forage report and the content of my forage (and I reiterate that because I don't want someone to do what I'm doing just because its working for me because it may not be the appropriate solution for someone else) I am adding baking soda to my horses' rations and their water. I am using baking soda because specific numbers show that I need to increase their sodium WITHOUT adding more chloride. And its working - my mare's engorged milk bag has gone AWAY completely, my mare with the chronic diarrhea now has firm "road-apple" stools, I have not had to give any of my mini horses bute since I started the baking soda a week ago.
The lesson I want to pass along is NOT that everyone should put baking soda in their horses' rations because if you are not in the same situation that I am in, it could make create problems. But I just wanted to illustrate the critical necessity for testing forage, understanding horse nutrition, and balancing rations. It is so incredibly critical for a healthy horse.
I have what I hope are 2 simple questions.... I got my pasture test results back, and while the iron is high (almost triple NRA), my Manganese is even higher (quadruple NRA!!!). My question is, do I balance my iron/copper/zinc/manganese to the iron level or to the manganese level? If I balance to the manganese level 3:4, that would mean I'd add more iron (+1,300mg) which doesn't sound right.
ReplyDeleteMy other question.... my pasture has plenty of calcium, but interesting is a bit Phosphorous deficient (about 5g short per daily intake DM). I've read that phosphorous absorption varies depending on need (they absorb more when they need extra), so I'm unsure if I need to supplement any!
Thanks so much for any help!
I guess no one has heard of leptin resistance including Dr. Getty. Feeding free choice hay to horses that are leptin resistant is a disaster waiting to happen. IR horses are also very often leptin resistant, as as such have no "shut off" for their calorie intake.
ReplyDeleteVisit the Equine Cushing's and IR group for info on leptin resistance, or better yet, talk to a DVM, or VMD to get veterinary advice. Any diagnosis of a disease process that is done by anyone other than a DVM, or VMD is a violation of the law. Anyone who is diagnosing a disease in your horse, and is not a DVM, or VMD is practicing veterinary medicine without a license!
Hello -- Anonymous, if would like to have a discussion, be courageous enough to provide your name.
ReplyDeleteAnd before you voice an opinion, perhaps it would be good to read my work -- which you apparently have not. Otherwise you would know that I talk a great deal about leptin resistance.
Dr. Juliet M. Getty